Offnews published an article by Petar Georgiev (better known under his pseudonym Volgin), which claims to reveal the origins of “neoliberalism” and expose unsavory facts about this philosophical movement. Leaving aside the fact that each self-appointed critic understands something different by neoliberalism, in this case it is used synonymously with libertarianism, the text is nevertheless interesting to consider, as the theses in it find a serious resonance among left-thinking readers.
Since the article is full of outright and sometimes laughable lies and non sequiturs, I will quote some of the passages so as not to be accused of building a straw man. Volgin begins with a very interesting statement:
Immediately after the end of World War II, an extremely unfavorable period began for fanatical defenders of the free market, for the fierce propagandists of the thesis that everyone should fend for themselves, that any state intervention is detrimental to society. At that time, almost no one believed the libertarian clichés, because it had become clear that the war was not won by private armies, not by the mythical “free market” and not by “healthy egoism”; it was won thanks to the joint efforts of many people, thanks to their solidarity, their readiness to come to the aid of those in trouble. Therefore, it is quite natural that after the victory over Hitler, most people continued to believe in such values, to rely more on solidarity and cooperation and less on egoism.
In fact, the same slogans as solidarity, the common good before the personal, social justice and the like are at the heart of the National Socialist and other collectivist ideologies, which, like Mr. Volgin, destroy "egoism" in the name of the interests of the people or the class. And yes, the war was not won by private armies, nor was it incited by them. A tragedy of such magnitude with over 50 million dead could only happen thanks to strong centralized states, controlling huge resources and completely uninterested in their meaningful use. Already in this first paragraph, several, to put it mildly, debatable beliefs of Mr. Volgin are evident, which he cites as empirically established facts:
1. The Second World War was a natural disaster, without any connection with the state policies of the preceding years. Obviously, the economic nationalism, trade restrictions, protectionism, collectivism in various forms that raged after the First World War had nothing to do with the disruption of international cooperation. Obviously, the Treaty of Versailles, the naval blockade, the occupation and hyperinflation in Germany were not directly related to the radicalization of the desperate German society that ultimately led Hitler to power.
2. In the same sentence, Mr. Volgin states that cooperation between people is possible only through state intervention, that people need central planning to realize the benefits of the division of labor. And if the author needs a leader-sun to illuminate the right path, then he does not need to impose it on others.
3. It seems that according to Mr. Volgin, the definition of “solidarity” includes forcibly taking from one to give to another. Voluntary solidarity without state coercion does not exist.
By mentioning Hayek's "The Road to Serfdom", Volgin is trying to expose the most extreme representative of libertarianism. First of all, it should be mentioned that Hayek is neither the most prominent nor the most consistent liberal thinker, and it is frivolous to present himself as such. I would advise Mr. Volgin to study the personalities and books of Murray Rothbard and Hans Hermann Hoppe. But let's see what he says about Hayek anyway:
… [ A ]nd the second believes that the participation of state structures in the life of society should be reduced to a minimum and that everything should be left to the “invisible hand of the market”. The next few decades show the complete bankruptcy of this prediction. In Western Europe and America, the state not only does not hide like a frightened mouse, but, on the contrary, acts very proactively. Thanks to its active role, these societies prosper and ultimately emerge victorious in the Cold War.
In addition to the factual errors arising from ignorance/manipulative representation of Hayek, who makes quite serious compromises towards the state's involvement in people's lives, Mr. Volgin also demonstrates ignorance about post-war economic policies.
For Mr. Volgin's information: in 1944 the US federal budget was $54.5 billion in deficit (about 25.8% of GDP), in 1947 it was $13.4 billion in surplus. During the same period the government also laid off about 20% of its military and civilian employees. To the horror of Keynesians and other central planners, this sharp cut in government spending did not return the country to the darkest times of the Great Depression, but on the contrary - in the following years the strongest growth in modern history was recorded [1].
The situation is similar in West Germany – Ludwig Erhart’s pro-market reforms freed people from the shackles of the socialist plan and allowed them to accomplish the so-called “German economic miracle”. “Proactive” England (its government, to be more precise) on the other hand slowly sank into the swamp of nationalizations, militant unions, price controls and other progressive measures to make the broad masses happy, so that after a few decades the economic status of Great Britain was comparable to that of socialist East Germany.
The same policies lead to the "severe economic crisis" of the 1970s, acknowledged by Mr. Volgin, which, however, did not affect the vile Institute of Economics, which had the audacity to have sufficient funds. And if so far we have been moving in the realm of factual errors and manipulations, then in the last sentence of this paragraph we pass into pure absurdity. If an active state contributes to the prosperity of societies, why did the most active state in the world, the USSR, lose the Cold War?
In the following lines, Mr. Volgin engages in a righteous battle with those who do not believe in the greatness of the state, not missing the opportunity to denounce wealth as necessarily derived from robbery. By putting conservative organizations like the Heritage Foundation, with politicians influenced by monetarism like Reagan and Thatcher under a common denominator and convincing them that they are libertarians, the author once again demonstrates his ignorance of the subject he is writing about. If he had made a little effort to study true libertarianism, he would have inevitably come across the page of the Ludwig von Mises Institute, an organization that gave rise to the intellectual revolution.
However, this institute is not convenient for attack, because its history does not hide such piquancy as sponsorships by large corporations. The latter is not at all surprising, considering that certain corporations seek proximity to governments for protection from competition, for obtaining public contracts and bail outs. All forms of crony capitalism, no less incompatible with libertarianism than the pyramid called social security. With his point mentioning the bankruptcy of Lehmann Brothers as a result of libertarianism, the author only reinforces the impression of incompetence.
It's a pity that libertarianism has not yet met a knowledgeable, Bulgarian critic.
EKIP– Expert Club for Economics and Politics A Different Opinion

Sir, you are handling History like some kind of illusionist. You are reaching the absurdity of comparing a wartime and a post-war budget. WWII was caused by over-centralized countries!!! It remains to say who prepared the treaty system in Versailles and who caused the destructive economic decline after the Great Depression - a product of a completely decentralized economy, which in a very direct way brought Hitler to power in Germany. How would Erhard have coped without the solidarity of "foreign" money, directed towards "development" - according to Keynesianism, and not towards plunder - according to Friedmanism. Please, tell us where the successes of the "free market" are! Chile and the Southern Cone? Central America? South Africa? The Far East? Poland? Russia? New Orleans? Bulgaria?! Where? 2008 rang the funeral bells, you are still consecrating water!
The author is absolutely right to criticize that people generally have no idea what libertarianism is. They think that libertarianism is simply an extension of the current state of affairs. And they don't just think that, they are 150% convinced. And when you are 150% convinced, you don't think you need to learn more about the issue. And so things remain with mistaken beliefs and ghost hunting.
Example: People are convinced that the free market (as defined by Marx, as it is accepted in society) caused the Great Depression. Trying to explain to someone that the Great Depression would not have happened at all if the monetary system had been properly regulated and solutions to the problems would not have been needed is almost impossible. It requires you to imagine a parallel reality, and that is very difficult for 99% of people.
It's even worse with the "free market". People think they understand this term. But what they understand is what is written or hinted at in the newspapers. And that is Marx's definition. When the definitions are wrong, how can you come to the right conclusion? I recently read an article where developing countries in Africa were presented as an example of a "free market". And the author said that given this example, one should simply laugh at the views of a free market. That is the generally accepted opinion. And go and explain that this is not a free market, but simply what the author thinks the free market represents. And that the author refutes a thesis that libertarians do not support. Roughly speaking, the following happens: a very weak (wrong) version is created and then easily refuted. This logical fallacy has a name: strawman.
Great comment! I would also like to add that Hayek opposes the idea of introducing fiat currency, which is precisely the root cause of stagflation in the Western world.
My personal opinion is that it is not a problem that the currency is fiat (i.e. not backed by anything real), but that it is increasing. There would be no problem using unsecured money that does not increase.
The requirement to back the currency (with gold, for example) comes from the desire to limit (but not stop) the printing of money. However, if printing is stopped in some way, it makes absolutely no difference whether the currency is backed by something or not. And printing can be stopped in other ways, for example with:
1. Law (only a theoretical possibility, no way to make it happen in practice).
2. Allowing a free market in money, i.e. competing currencies. The currency that increases the least will have a good chance of being used the most.
An interesting case is Bitcoin. It could potentially become exactly that: in addition to fiat, it could also become a cashless (electronic) currency. Such currencies could, in my opinion, be used with great success in the future. I read that the US has already started the offensive against Bitcoin. I wonder how long they will allow it to exist (or rather, to be used).
By the way, the gold standard is something much better than the current system, but it has the same shortcomings as it, just much smaller ones.
I agree with what was written. The question is about trust. Do governments have it? Rather not. Do central banks have it? Absolutely not. Similar disputes exist around the currency board in our country, and frankly believing that it is a serious reason for expensive loans and the poor business climate in the country, I do not think it should be abolished, precisely because of the distrust in politicians and the BNB.
We ourselves have become victims of the abuses of dominant positions by central banks and governments, and my personal opinion is that they, like other sectors of the economy, should embark on the path of liberalization. It is time to privatize money so that some do not pay for the abuses of others. I recommend this article on the subject: http://www.martindurkin.com/blogs/time-privatise-money-future-civilisation-depends-it.
P.P. Bitcoin is making a lot of enemies, but it is yet another proof that people are willing to do anything to bypass bureaucrats and regulators. I hope the project is off to a bright start.
I completely agree with the following passage "libertarianism has not yet met a knowledgeable, Bulgarian critic". And I would add that it also applies to an "expert" in the same sense.
@Denis
"It's time to privatize money so that some people don't pay for the abuses of others."
I'm not sure if you understand the implications of what you want (I should note that I agree with you). The above simply cannot be done because:
1. The welfare state as it is now organized is becoming impossible
2. The state loses a lot of power (power is not given)
3. Wars are becoming practically impossible.
4. Many other reasons related to the organization of modern society.
In order for such a "revolution" to take place, there must be a change in the ideas that people profess, and such a thing is currently not being observed.
Of course, in view of today's reality, such a reform seems practically unfeasible. Even more painful is the question of how exactly such a transitional period will be planned. To your arguments I would add the lack of a specific system for issuing "private" money.
It is likely that the markets will answer the question, which is why Bitcoin is so interesting and relevant, but in its entirety the world is rather "turning to the left" and the fears that the consequences of this will be suffered remain.
"It's a pity that libertarianism has not yet met a knowledgeable, Bulgarian critic."
This is impossible to happen. Libertarianism, conservatism, socialism, communism, etc., are categories that provide information about a person/group of people's beliefs about something. The beliefs of conservatives and socialists are subject to criticism, since their actions or inactions arising from these beliefs relate to time (now or in the past) and place (here or there) and can be verified.
Libertarianism, like communism, are beliefs that relate more to the future than to the realities of the here and now. Both schools of thought do not accept criticism. The problems that arise when implementing actions arising from these beliefs are always explained by the lack of "a little more" of what they offer. The problems for some are caused by "deviation from the free market", and for others by "perversion of communist ideas". Insofar as these beliefs relate to the future and do not tolerate criticism, this is more like a belief:
"Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Epistle of St. Paul to the Hebrews 11:1
Faith is not subject to criticism. The believer believes regardless of the "objective reality" around him. Since the very concept of "objective reality" is also limited and in practice a subjective perception, any "proofs" are impossible.
The correspondence polemic between Mr. Mikov and Mr. Volgin is interesting, but it should be viewed solely as a religious dispute - nothing more.
@Toto5
"Libertarianism, like communism, are beliefs that relate more to the future than to the realities of the here and now. Both schools of thought do not accept criticism."
Libertarians take criticism. The problem is when they are criticized for ideas they don't support based on definitions they don't support. How do you explain that the problem is misplaced?
"Faith is not subject to criticism. The believer believes regardless of the "objective reality" around him."
The above is a very good and correct thought. The problem is this:
The typical believer does the following: he believes regardless of the facts. That is, when the facts support his belief, he accepts it without reservation. However, when the facts of reality do not justify his belief, he rejects it.
In this respect, currently accepted economic theories are also faith.
As a libertarian (I consider myself one, but I don't know if I directly meet the definition) I acknowledge the facts. My discussion is about the reasons that led to these facts.
@EE
"In this respect, currently accepted economic theories are also faith"
I don't think so. The current economic system is more of a "Status Quo" - an existing reality. Faith is a mental concept, not a reality.
In the current economic system, there are three aspects that, until they are eliminated, make no sense to talk about an economy regulated by the free market. These are:
- the systems for regulating money in circulation
- insurance systems (regardless of whether they are managed by the state or private funds)
- restrictions on labor mobility
As long as these systems exist, we will talk about more market and less market societies. But that is like saying that a woman is more or less pregnant.
@Toto5
"I don't think so"
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't current socially accepted economic theories assume that man is absolutely rational? That's an axiomatic assumption. And a wrong one. In your opinion, how far can a man go when he starts from wrong axioms? And isn't it faith to accept something despite the contradiction with the facts?
Another similar problem is the claim that an economy needs inflation to grow (I don't know where it comes from directly, but it's generally accepted). I've already pointed out that in the 19th century there were many cases of deflationary growth. Here's another example of how theories and reality diverge. And how, when they diverge, reality is simply ignored (something has gone wrong!).
"As long as these systems exist, we will talk about more market and less market societies. But that's like saying that a woman is more or less pregnant."
I agree. The problem is that you understand this, not the average person. The comparison with the pregnant woman is very good.
@EE
"Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't current mainstream economic theories assume that man is absolutely rational? That's an axiomatic assumption."
Well, you're wrong. As I told you on the other site, economics is not an exact science, but a social one. It is by definition, and like all other social sciences, it can only assume that something is so, and not otherwise. "Rational behavior" is not an axiom, but only an assumption when something needs to be explained more simply and accessiblely, without going into details. You did it the same way on your blog (the story about bananas and fish).
There are a number of areas of economics that attempt to capture the various aspects of the behavior of subjects. Example: Behavioral economics - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavioral_economics
I am not against the market, but for the unnecessary talk about the "free market", without taking into account the realities. An example of this are several articles in this blog, where it is claimed that the market can solve the problems of Bulgarian education. As far as I know (from the comments) you are also a supporter of this idea. This is an absolute delusion and manipulation of the readers. I am very interested in how you see that this can happen, but step by step, here and now, and not in the distant future? All this, taking into account the fact that Bulgaria is a member of the EU and has taken on a bunch of commitments and obligations in this direction.
The only thing you can offer will be some quasi-market solutions.
However, there is only one thing worse than state intervention in the economy, and that is quasi-market fabrications. The state may prevent the market from developing, but quasi-market relations destroy the market in its infancy or directly destroy an existing market. There are as many examples in this regard as you want.
People resent precisely these quasi-market decisions and this quasi-market talk.
The "free market" is a utopia no less dangerous than communism. Just like it, it can only be pushed through at the tip of bayonets! There are many examples, but no one here goes into them: Chile, Argentina, Bolivia, Brazil, Poland, Russia, South Africa, East Asia. Failure everywhere, missing persons everywhere, murders, suicides! Violence and undermining of institutions everywhere. The regular justification for failure is that "liberal" reforms have never been carried out in their entirety. Well, normal! Since they have been spread everywhere under pressure, with weapons and after great upheavals, that is, they cannot gain public support anywhere. Or is there any normal person who wants a minimum of public services, low employment, weak unions, low incomes, privatization to the brim, demographic problems until there is no stone left on top of a stone. Where is "Solidarity" after shock therapy, where are the Russian "reformers", where are our "blues"? This is happening everywhere. There is no such thing as a free market, there is no national economy without regulations. Let there be private initiative, but it should only be done according to the relevant rules. The dependence between redistribution - inequality - poverty is even more clearly proven. For your information, Bulgaria redistributes 35% of GDP - the least in the entire EU! You have a "flat" tax, low corporate tax, almost everything is sold out, what more do you want? Where are your investments, what is the state in? Well, you also want a fair judicial system?! There's no way it can be done, someone has to watch your asses, right?
As I said above (to you), the concept of "free market" is defined indirectly by Marx and his ilk. And within his definition, the consequences are bad. This definition automatically implies state intervention, violence, and so on.
What the Austrians mean by a free market is something fundamentally different. A free market exists when there are only three regulatory institutions (state or not): the police, the courts, and the military.
And if the free market is "driven through the point of bayonets," then this is not the Austrian understanding of a free market at all. A free market means the absence of violence between market participants. And that's what the above three institutions are for. Wherever you see violence, it's not a free market. Violence is the use of physical force.
The examples you give for a "free market" are only for a more or less free one in certain aspects. And the difference is just like between a pregnant and a non-pregnant woman. You can't be "a little pregnant".
It remains for you to give an example where there is a successful attempt to impose a "free market"? Otherwise, I am left with the understanding that you are a utopian. And where is this "absolute freedom"? Where is there a "clean slate"? Here is Chile, Pinochet eliminated the opposition, gave you complete freedom to experiment and protection from being enraged. Indonesia, Suharto - a civil war cleared your path! How far have you brought it?
Does freeing prices and eliminating protectionism, provided you are not competitive, make you "free" or make you a slave again? Does a strong euro in a currency board make us as free as the Germans are?
The "Austrian Understanding" wanted to privatize the health system in the UK and was in absolute sync with the "Chicago Understanding" in all its experiments. It won't happen with just dusty economic theories 🙂
@EE
"A free market exists when there are only three regulatory institutions (state or not): police, court, and military."
An axiomatically accepted statement, resting only on faith. Such a system cannot exist together with personal freedom, and most likely the free market itself will disappear very quickly. The reason is very simple. The system lacks feedback and it cannot self-regulate. That is, it can only work according to a predetermined scheme and order, and that is until something in it breaks.
Kostadin is very right. The “free market” is a utopia no less dangerous than communism. The reason is (as I wrote above) that in their quest to get closer to it, believers introduce quasi-market entities that only destroy the market and what has been done so far.
I asked a question above, which I will repeat:
There are several articles on this blog that claim that the market can solve the problems of Bulgarian education. As far as I know (from the comments), you are also a supporter of this idea. This is an absolute delusion and manipulation of the readers. I am very interested in how you see that this can be done, but step by step, here and now, and not in the distant future? All this, taking into account the fact that Bulgaria is a member of the EU and has made a bunch of commitments and obligations in this direction. If the market cannot help solve the problems of education, what is the point of writing these articles except for outright manipulation or lobbying interests.
@Toto5
"Well, you're wrong. As I told you on the other site, economics is not an exact science, but a social one. It is by definition, and like all other social sciences, it can only assume that something is this way, and not otherwise."
We agree with you that economics is not an exact science. But that is not the question. And yes, I know that there are different branches of economics that look at things from a different angle. But that is not the question. The question is: Do we accept rationality as a starting point in modern economic theory and then use the results? If so, then the results of these theories (based on rationality) are not valid. And if we decide to use them, then we are guaranteed to have bad results.
He did not comment on my question about deflationary growth and whether this is not exactly blind faith (I ask because you claim that I believe blindly and somehow deny facts).
By the way, when I explain something I do make simplifications. When one makes simplifications, however, one must be very careful where one goes because one can throw out things that are important and the results will not apply. Throwing out half or more of human behavior is an unforgivable simplification, however (I am talking about rationality and irrationality).
"As far as I know (from the comments) you are also a supporter of this idea. This is an absolute delusion and manipulation of the readers. I am very interested in how you see that this can be done, but step by step, here and now, and not in the distant future? All this, taking into account the fact that Bulgaria is a member of the EU and has made a bunch of commitments and obligations in this direction."
I don't know why you think I think anything can change in practice. On the contrary, I think it won't change and the reason is in people's beliefs. You can't fight beliefs. They curse the system, but if you offer them another one, they'll throw you out. In short: I can't offer you a plan like you want. The only thing I can point out is where the system is wrong and why and what the right solution is. When a system is built incorrectly, it remains that way. Even if you powder it a little (your quasi-market solutions), that still doesn't make it right, just a not-so-bad idea.
@Toto5
"An axiomatically accepted statement, resting solely on faith."
On the contrary. It is based on logical reasoning and observations of reality.
"Such a system cannot coexist with personal freedom, and most likely the free market itself will disappear very quickly. The reason is very simple. The system lacks feedback and cannot self-regulate."
On the contrary, there is feedback in the system. In the current distorted version of the free market, there is no feedback, for example in the financial markets, where you can inflate balloons without a problem. In a free market, this could not happen.
I think I described the process to you on G. Angelov's blog, if I'm not mistaken.
And it is precisely in this system (a free market by the Austrian definition) that personal freedom is at its maximum. A person is free to do whatever he or she deems good as long as it does not violate the freedom of others (i.e., does not use violence).
Example: There will be no obstacle to starting a business. By starting a business, I do not use violence against anyone, i.e. I do not limit the freedom of other people. However, at the moment, the obstacles to starting a business are countless. i.e. my freedom is limited. In a free market, this would not be the case and all people would benefit from this.
@EE
"On the contrary, there is a feedback loop in the system."
You didn't understand me. I wasn't asking about the economic system, but about the political one.
" ...... there are only three regulatory institutions (state or not): police, court and military."
The questions here are:
- how and who determines what is a crime and what is not?
- how is it determined who is a judge?
- who controls the police and the military and how
- what is the guarantee that the security forces will not try to take away people's freedom (by force).
Your system does not imply democracy. In a democracy, there can always be a group (majority) that, in the name of something, restricts the free market and changes the rules of the game.
There is no democracy - there is no feedback. The system of government cannot regulate itself and is moving to some other form of government - hereditary, class-based (ruled by, for example, a high judicial or military council), etc.
In general, a complete utopia. For such a system to exist, and harmoniously, one must rely either on high moral qualities of individuals or on a good king.
The whole thing is a movie you've seen, similar political systems have happened and they always have personal freedoms tending towards zero (for the majority of the population).
@Kostadin
"It remains for you to give an example where there is a successful attempt to impose a "free market"?"
I don't know of any attempt to achieve a free market (Austrian). And to talk about a "successful" attempt when it hasn't even been attempted is ridiculous.
The reason is that people want the state to retain control over the economy in one way or another.
About Chile: Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems they gave Friedman the opportunity to realize his vision of a "free market" (which only partially coincides with the Austrian one). Unfortunately, I don't know much about the matter. Let me note that under Friedman, as far as I know, the state retains economic and political power.
I don't know anything about Indonesia and I can't comment.
"And where is this "absolute freedom"? Where is there a "clean slate"?"
Absolute freedom has never existed because it has never been allowed. It is absurd, under current beliefs, for the state to give up its power.
Regarding my being a utopian: Feudalism came after the slave system. That is, during the slave system, feudalism did not exist and was not possible (like absolute freedom). Does it follow that feudalism is a utopia?
"Does freeing prices and eliminating protectionism, provided you are not competitive, make you "free" or make you a slave again?"
On the contrary, freeing prices and removing protectionism makes you competitive and free.
"The "Austrian Understanding" wanted the privatization of the health system in Britain and was in absolute sync with the "Chicago Understanding" in all its experiments."
I'm curious what you mean, because I have no idea.
"It won't work with just dusty economic theories"
I don't know if you understand that we are still working with economic theories. Only they are not so dusty. And when they are beneficial to us, we use them, and when they are not: we simply ignore them. So: how do you think it will happen? Like now or in some other way?
Too many "I have no idea" to continue this conversation. And yet, is there a country without political power to "preserve" it according to Friedman?! The difference in the two schools is generational - they are from the same generation, they even merge, invite each other, teach at the same universities, but there is a difference in time. The Austrian school was born in the 30s, and the Chicago school - in the 50s. At that time, there was nowhere to apply their utopian theories, since Keynesianism was gaining success everywhere, and most politicians considered their ideas dangerous. Libertarian ideas could not be pushed through in any other way than through shock: war, coup, destabilization, a major natural disaster... The reason is that they could not attract public approval. For example, the liberalization of prices in a relatively small country. Imports immediately lead to a decline in domestic production, high unemployment, low consumption, and from there the spiral turns. This has been done in all the countries I mentioned and the result is the same.
@Toto5
"Your system does not imply democracy. In a democracy, there can always be a group (majority) that, in the name of something, restricts the free market and changes the rules of the game."
Absolutely true. Democracy says the following: Those who are more, set the rules for everyone (i.e. also for those who disagree). That is, those who are stronger (in this case more) have the right to impose themselves on others. In short: Whoever has the power, has the right. Nothing fundamentally new under the sun. An old principle in a new package. In the past, it was the tribal chief, the king or the monarch. Now it is the multitude. If the multitude decides, it can break the head of anyone, no matter for what reason. Therefore, democracy and freedom are incompatible. Freedom is the absence of physical violence, and democracy is based on violence.
The best that can be said about democracy is that it is simply better than the systems tried so far and that it allows a lot of freedom to the individual (a large part of the constitution consists of NON-democratic principles).
"There is no democracy - there is no feedback. The system of governance cannot regulate itself and is moving to some other form of governance - hereditary, class-based (ruled by, for example, a high judicial or military council), etc."
Imagine a system (I don't know what to call it, I read somewhere about "natural order") in which a majority of people decide for themselves how to live. That is, they choose the laws by which to live and the way to organize society. However, these laws and institutions only apply to those who agree with them. Those who disagree are free to organize another version of the state (buy land, secede and do whatever they want). Notice that there is one huge difference between what I am describing to you and democracy. Namely, that there is no violence in relations between people. In democracy, the minority necessarily performs differently......
In this system, there will be a feedback loop. And it will be that people want such an organization of society. And when for some reason the organization of society changes against their wishes, they will take to the streets. If you pay attention, the situation is exactly the same now, so there is no way to say that it is not possible. And now people want democracy, state education, social systems and so on. And as you can see, we have them, and we are not falling into some authoritarian regime. I have always pointed out that people's ideas determine the organization of a society. And when ideas change, the organization of society also changes. And what I want is only for people's ideas to be a little different. This is not something impossible. An example is history: the organization and ideas of the human race evolve.
"- how and who determines what is a crime and what is not?" "- how is it determined who is a judge?"
Constitution, laws and court. I am also not clear about the issue of organization. I have not read enough. Unfortunately, I have the feeling (some time ago I spoke on G. Anglov's blog with someone supposedly more knowledgeable than me, i.e. who has read more) that other people are not exactly clear either. There is a lot to discuss here and I myself have disagreements and doubts.
"- who and how controls the police and the military", "- what is the guarantee that the security forces will not try to take away people's freedom (by force)."
The guarantee is exactly the same as today, even greater because these institutions will only apply to those who agree with them.
As a separate, side question, let me remind you that I asked for your opinion on deflationary and inflationary growth and so far I have no answer.
@Toto5
By the way, I suggest that we don't write with "reply", but one after another. The reason is that the system does not give a "reply" button on certain posts (see above) and I am forced to write below, which in turn divides the discussion. With "reply" I am also forced to constantly go back up to see if anything new has appeared.
@Kostadin
"Too many 'I have no idea's' to continue this conversation."
No one is forcing you to have this conversation. We are here by choice. And I am not an economist by education or profession. I can only take a position based on what I know.
"And yet, is there a country without political power to "preserve" it according to Friedman?!"
Economic power and political power are tightly linked. There was a time when there was no separation of religion and state. But now there is. The desire of libertarians is for the state and the economy to be separated in the same way that religion and state are now. From this separation follows a lack of political power (what is a politician to do when there is nothing to control?).
"Libertarian ideas cannot be pushed through in any other way than through shock: war, coup, destabilization, major natural disaster... The reason is that they cannot attract public approval."
This about war, coups, destabilization, etc. are your own ideas (and not only yours) that have NOTHING TO DO WITH the ideas of libertarianism. The principles of libertarianism are based on non-violence. And forcing someone to accept your ideas by force is the highest form of violence. In short: whoever uses or supports the above methods IS NOT A LIBERTARIAN.
And you are right that ideas cannot gain public approval. However, this does not in any way follow that they are wrong. The fact that a multitude agrees with an idea does not follow that it is right (nor does it follow that it is wrong).
"For example, the liberalization of prices in a relatively small country. Imports immediately lead to a decline in domestic production, high unemployment, low consumption, and from there the spiral turns. This has been done in all the countries I mentioned to you and the result is the same."
You are confusing a transitional process with something permanent. The situation you are considering is the following: In a country, for example, there were protective tariffs for agricultural production or subsidies for it. And now we suddenly remove them. A crisis occurs in the industry. However, in the normal case (i.e. when you have not stepped on the throat of the economy with state restrictions) the economy begins to restructure. Unemployment occurs because people are released from the agricultural sector. However, these unemployed people later find work elsewhere (in industry, services, or back to agriculture).
If you're interested in an example, it's New Zealand. That's exactly what happened there. I can't tell you many details, but the exact situation above played out there. Public outcry about how the agricultural sector will go bankrupt if we let it compete freely. And in practice: agriculture is restructuring (yes, it takes time) and earning money effectively. As I said: you're confusing a normal transitional process of restructuring the economy with something permanent.
Sir, do you have the opportunity to remain unemployed for five or ten years, to experience a sharp increase in prices and a cut in social protections, in order to follow a similar "liberal" experiment? Because this is what happens to ordinary people in the countries I mentioned. And the success of the reforms is evidenced by the fact that almost everywhere in these countries "the reformers are on trial, and they have all returned to the instruments of protectionism and the welfare state.
@EE
"Another similar problem is the claim that an economy needs inflation to develop (I don't know directly where it comes from, but it's generally accepted)."
It is not at all necessary that there should be inflation. However, I am afraid that in a credit money system, inflation is inevitable. That is, it may not exist, but in a different monetary system.
Let's look more broadly at the issue of axioms, laws, and predictions.
I have repeated several times that I perceive economics as a social science, as it is by definition and as is generally accepted opinion. That is, it only assumes something. Or, more precisely, its different representatives and directions assume many and different things. How and whether these assumptions, forecasts, analyses and conclusions will be used at all depends on the economic subjects, and not on the economists themselves.
Today we have a system of credit money. Economic analyses and forecasts are obliged to take this fact into account and from there to take inflation into account. That is, their forecast is for the here and now (with this monetary system). Ignoring this reality (credit money) makes the conversation imaginary and takes it to another dimension of time and space.
The problem with libertarians and communists is that, unlike the rest, they are looking into the future, and not concentrating on the "here and now". I have nothing against any idea, as long as it remains that way. However, I am absolutely against it when someone in the name of this same idea imposes on me and tells me what is right or wrong. The result is complete absurdity - in the name of freedom (as he understands it) someone imposes on me what and how to do. That is, he tries to limit my personal freedom.
"Even if you powder it a little (your quasi-market decisions), that still doesn't make it right, just a not-so-bad idea."
This is where we fundamentally disagree. For me, every quasi-market solution is absolutely harmful, not "one idea better". You fix one thing, and the side effects screw up a hundred other things. The reason is simple again - the solution is imposed by force. If it is not imposed by force, it simply will not happen, because the market is not ripe for such a solution.
@Kostadin
"Sir, do you have the opportunity to remain unemployed for five or ten years, to experience a sharp increase in prices and a cut in social protections, in order to follow such a "liberal" experiment?"
No, I don't have the opportunity. Let me note that we are currently living in an "experiment" (not a "liberal" one, but a "pseudo-liberal" one) and similar things happen every 5-7 years.
Let me point out that the unwillingness to accept short-term pain is precisely what hinders all reforms anywhere. When you are sick, you have to take medicine, which is often very bitter (when restructuring the economy there is unemployment), but it is inevitable. When you are unwilling, the illness simply prolongs.
Let me give an example of healthcare in Bulgaria. Everyone (!) is of the opinion that it needs to be reformed, but God forbid anyone who decides to touch it. They will be lynched. Politicians are very well aware of the problem (the unwillingness to accept the disadvantages of the transition to another system) and therefore they simply drag out the problem and push it on others after them.
"And the success of the reforms is evidenced by the fact that almost everywhere in these countries "the reformers are on trial, and they have all returned to the tools of protectionism and the welfare state."
Liberal reform would mean the state reducing its power. If you have reformed, there is no way you can go back to protectionism and the welfare state.
By the way, my claim is that such a reform is not possible. And not because it is impossible in theory, but because people do not want such a thing. They want social systems and other things. They spit on them because they do not work properly, but if someone dares to take them away from them, they will lynch them.
Let me emphasize that liberal reform by force is an absolute contradiction. If it is done by force, not by conviction, then it is not liberal.
These "liberal" reforms have been carried out in many places, the results are the same everywhere - huge inequality, social exclusion of large groups of the population. That is, even after these 5-10 years, nothing has changed for the better, and things are getting even worse. You use the word "reform" as some kind of spell! Healthcare needed a reform?! As long as you know what kind! "Semashko" continues to function wonderfully in Cuba and trains doctors for all of Latin America. Under the previous regime, the healthcare administration consisted of 300 people, with quality and affordable services, with specialized hospitals, reaching down to the smallest school.
Are you suggesting that we abolish social systems? You are a dangerous fundamentalist! Since the time of Aristotle, everything has been about "moira" (measure), the balance that cannot be ensured by the "free" market. First, because such an absolute does not exist; second, because such relations cannot be regulated on the basis of mercantilism. The only option remains the state.
@Toto5
"It is not at all necessary that there be inflation. However, I am afraid that in a credit money system, inflation is inevitable. That is, it may not exist, but in a different monetary system."
Even with a credit money system, there may be no inflation (=0), or there may be deflation (with growth). I read that before Keynes came into fashion, monetarism (someone called Fisher) was in fashion in the States. He argued that if you keep prices the same (by printing just enough to compensate for the fall in prices from the growth of the economy), the economy will be stable forever. And he was very surprised by the depression. After that, this school of thought disappeared.
Anyway, let me ask the question more precisely for the third time: Is deflationary growth possible according to modern (studied in universities) economic theories. I ask because I am not an economist and have not studied them. Right now, everyone is saying exactly this (that without inflation there is no growth). And how does this relate to the facts (deflationary growth in the 19th century)?
"I have nothing against any idea, as long as it remains that way. However, I am absolutely against it when someone, in the name of this same idea, imposes on me and tells me what is right or wrong. The result is complete absurdity - in the name of freedom (as he understands it) someone imposes on me what and how to do. That is, he tries to limit my personal freedom."
A very good thought, which I would write myself and with which I completely agree. Let me clarify, however: anyone who tries to impose ideas with violence IS NOT A LIBERTARIAN (no matter what they claim), and for exactly the reason you described.
@EE
"Anyway, let me ask the question more precisely for the third time: Is deflationary growth possible according to modern (studied in universities) economic theories. I ask because I am not an economist and have not studied them. Right now, everyone is saying exactly this (that without inflation there is no growth). And how does this relate to the facts (deflationary growth in the 19th century)?"
I can only give my personal opinion on the matter:
1. In my opinion, there is no direct relationship between inflation and GDP growth.
2. Eternal growth is not possible (there is no perpetual motion machine in nature)
3. Growth depends most on breakthroughs in technology and work organization.
I believe that at the moment, growth without a new breakthrough in technology and without inflation is truly impossible. The reason is simple. The financial system and credit dominate the rest of the economy, and the revolution that we are witnessing in the development of information technology is not on the scale and with the effect of the industrial revolution to change things significantly.
However, this is a deviation from the topic and I suggest we return to it. Why do I think that the "free market" is a utopia?
People are very different, their cultures are different and they would react differently when put in a given situation. Even if you put them in a minimal state environment (court, military, police) very quickly certain cultures will organize themselves and create additional structures that will more or less limit the free market. That is, in order to maintain the free market you have to limit their personal freedom (not allow them to make such an organization), which is completely contrary to the idea.
More about cultural differences here: http://nauka.bg/forum/index.php?showtopic=6859
Why I think the libertarian push is harmful.
Any quasi-market structure or idea imposed in an unnatural way destabilizes the market. That is, by fighting for more market, libertarians destroy the natural market.
Now you're going to tell me that these aren't real libertarians. However, this is the same excuse used to explain the shortcomings of communist ideology - the failures and blame are shifted to people who are "not real communists."
Where mistakes and failures are obvious, the problem is not as big because they are corrected. However, where they are invisible to society, the damage is many times greater.
Let's take, for example, the flat tax in its current form in Bulgaria.
Corporate tax is levied on the company's profit (income - expenses).
In personal taxes, it is assumed that if the tax is calculated in the same way (income minus expenses), the costs of administering the tax become very high and the tax itself becomes meaningless. That is why a non-taxable minimum is adopted, which essentially represents the minimum expenses necessary for an individual to survive. That is, the same logic is maintained to tax the difference between income and expenses, but the expenses are fixed for easier tax administration.
For some unknown reason, however, people who consider themselves libertarians vehemently defend another model - taxing all income of individuals without taking into account expenses. This is like me proposing to tax not profits, but all income of a company. This is essentially an anti-liberal and anti-market view.
The motives of these so-called libertarians are also interesting - for the flat rate the motive was fairness (I fully support it), and for the lack of a non-taxable minimum - concern for state revenues (something that should be the job of the finance minister and the state).
Here is the opinion of Mr. Karolev, who describes himself as a supporter of liberal ideas:
".......I am against any repeal of the flat tax, but there is one option, which is cosmetic, to NOT introduce a non-taxable minimum, but only a higher rate for high salaries."
http://www.24chasa.bg/Article.asp?ArticleId=1989350
That is, it is more acceptable for him to completely eliminate the flat rate (one fair element), but to continue to tax all income, without taking into account the expenses of individuals (lack of a non-taxable minimum).
There are as many examples of such actions as you want. It is these quasi-market ideas that make people distrust so-called libertarians. Because it turns out that their talk is one thing, their actions are another, and the effects of these actions are something completely different.
@Kostadin
"These "liberal" reforms have been made in many places, the results are the same everywhere - huge inequality, social exclusion of large groups of the population."
A pretty serious summary. Is it really always true? And the more interesting question: why?
Regarding inequality: in a free (Austrian) market, it should be constant and not increase and be determined by the productive abilities of people. At the moment, it is indeed constantly increasing, but this has nothing to do with the free market, but with violations of the rules of the free market (printing money, state support of monopolies, etc.).
And there would be no social systems (except private ones), but even they would only be necessary in certain cases, provided that there is no unemployment. State social systems are necessary when there is a general problem. Yes, but what if there is no problem? That is, if everyone who wants and can (even if only partially can) can find a job? What are unemployment benefits for then?
"Under the previous regime, the healthcare administration consisted of 300 people, with quality and affordable services, with specialized hospitals, reaching down to the smallest school."
Yes, doctors and teachers were also in last place in terms of pay. Despite their qualifications and responsibilities. Modern equipment - none. Modern methods of treatment - none. In hospitals - misery. When you doubt, just look at the situation in Bulgaria today: Healthcare continues to be socialized as before. It is just slightly reorganized. To say that organizationally it has anything to do with the free market is ridiculous. It is a centrally managed system.
"You are a dangerous fundamentalist!"
The term "fundamentalist" is a bit vague to me, so I won't quibble about it. But how did you get to "dangerous"? How can I be dangerous when I am against violence on principle? You have turned things upside down. I am the least dangerous person and I belong to the least dangerous group in society. Everyone else is more dangerous than me (including you) because they believe that violence is a justified method of working to solve social problems. I would NEVER try to force a person to do something against their will. I would try to convince them (with words) to do something, but when I fail, I would stop. You wouldn't stop there because your thinking is different.
"Since the time of Aristotle, everything has been about the "moira" (measure), the balance that cannot be ensured by the "free" market."
It's a little unclear to me what you mean here. However, here's my comment. People somehow think that the truth is not in the extremes. And sometimes it is. Now when you tell someone that they are going to extremes, it automatically means that in your opinion they are wrong. However, is that so?
Examples:
To steal or not to steal? Being a thief is an extreme. Not stealing at all is also an extreme. Therefore, to avoid extremes, it is best to steal a little, right?
Should I beat my wife? Beating her is an extreme. And not beating her at all is the same. In order not to fall into extremes, I should only beat her occasionally.
On a philosophical level: Black is bad and extreme. However, white is also extreme and by the above logic also bad. Therefore, by the same logic, we should all be gray.
@Toto5
"I can only give my personal opinion on the matter:"
"I don't know" is a perfectly acceptable answer for me. That's it for now.
"Even if you put them in a minimal state environment (court, military, police), very quickly certain cultures will organize themselves and create additional structures that will more or less limit the free market."
Exactly. You can't force this. It doesn't work. People have to want it. And only when they want it will it be stable.
"For some unknown reason, however, people who consider themselves libertarians vehemently defend another model – taxing all of an individual's income without taking into account their expenses. ... This is essentially an anti-liberal and anti-market view."
The motives of these so-called libertarians are also interesting - for the flat rate the motive was fairness (I fully support it), and for the lack of a non-taxable minimum - concern for state revenues (something that should be the job of the Minister of Finance and the state)."
It got me thinking. This is a bit of a mixed question. You have to choose between two bad options.
The less taxation the better. However, when a tax-free minimum is introduced, they will then raise taxes to compensate for the lost revenue. Can you explain to me what is good about it?
Complicating the tax system (and the non-taxable minimum is exactly that) leads to more administration costs (state and company), income concealment, and so on, which is very bad. All anti-market things. And an invitation for the state to rush to "punish" business. A pure flat tax is easy to manage. And it does not create "equals" and "more equals" before the law. I should note that being equal before the law (even the tax law) is exactly a liberal idea. The demand for a non-taxable minimum creates a "privileged" class.
I don't share the concern about state revenues. The less state, the better.
Karolev's opinion about higher rates for higher salaries surprises me. Like you, I don't accept it.
"The complexity of the tax system (and the non-taxable minimum is exactly that) leads to more administration costs (state and company), income concealment, and so on, which is very bad."
Let's ask the question the other way around. Has the system been simplified with the removal of the non-taxable minimum? Absolutely not. And today you still have social security contributions deducted from the gross salary (the only recognized expense of individuals). Whether you will deduct them or "social security contributions + fixed amount" is the same. The system is complicated enough with categories such as minimum social security threshold, maximum social security income, etc. Any claim that the removal of the non-taxable minimum simplifies it is manipulative and aims to report activity. If the social security ambiguities have not been removed, everything else is just cosmetic improvements.
"A pure flat tax is easy to administer. And it doesn't create "equals" and "more equals" before the law."
Well, unfortunately, that's exactly what happens. The EOOD is the same, after it is the ET, and the individual blows the soup.
"The demand for a tax-free minimum creates a "privileged" class."
How did he come up with this and who is the class? I don't know if there is such a moment, but with the fierce defense of the model, libertarians are leaving the debate and will finally indirectly really help create a "privileged" class." Today I read that Oresharski proposes - "....Zero rate for income tax for workers on the MRZ"
This is already a real problem, but who knows, budget-conscious libertarians might like it.
@Toto5
"If the insurance nonsense isn't removed, everything else is just cosmetic improvements."
That is, your thesis is this: Since the system is already complex, there is no point in trying to simplify it because we will achieve little. To me, this is a bad way of thinking, which, by the way, also cements the status quo. By the way, this principle also works in the other direction: It is already complex, a little more complexity will not hurt.
When one solves such problems, one should proceed from principles, not from what the specific state of the problem is (exactly the opposite of political thinking). My principle is: things should be as simple as possible and move in the direction of a free market.
"EOOD is the most equal, after it is ET, and the individual blows the soup."
You'll have to explain to me what you're saying. I'm not clear.
"How did you come up with this and what class is it?"
The moment you impose a minimum threshold, those below the threshold automatically start to be treated differently. That is, they are a privileged class.
By the way: the problem is that people are poor in principle and we have to fight it, and this is not done with tax incentives (which are then taken away by the richer). Salaries are low, not that the personal income tax is high.
Introducing a non-taxable minimum is precisely an attempt to deal with the bad consequences of a bad state policy. The correct approach is to fight the causes. However, the latter is not an acceptable solution from a political point of view.
@EE
"So your thesis is this: Since the system is complicated anyway, there's no point in trying to simplify it because we'll achieve little."
No, my thesis is that the main and only goal of eliminating the non-taxable minimum is to collect more taxes. I judge this by the results, and also by the statements of the so-called libertarians. The main advantages that they point out are precisely in this direction.
I will repeat my post: "Any claim that eliminating the tax-free minimum simplifies it is manipulative and aims to report activity." - i.e. I claim that no one aims to simplify anything. This is also evident from the results.
"My principle is: things should be as simple as possible and move in the direction of a free market."
Eliminating the tax-free minimum does not support either of the two goals. Approaching the first goal is questionable, and you are actually moving away from the second.
"By the way: the problem is that people are poor in principle and we have to fight it, and this is not done with tax incentives (which are then taken away by the richer). Salaries are low, not that the personal income tax is high."
What does this have to do with my thesis? It's not about poverty, preferences, or the fact that the DOD is high. It's about justice, freedom, and equal treatment.
I'll repeat it again if you didn't understand:
For legal entities, PROFIT (income minus expenses) is taxed. The rate is 10%.
For sole proprietors, the profit is also subject to a 15% rate.
Individuals are taxed on ALL income, without taking into account any expenses other than social security contributions. Similar treatment is found almost nowhere else in the world.
In order to have justice and equal treatment of legal entities, taxable income must be obtained as the difference between the sum of all income sources and the so-called necessary inherent expenses. For easier functioning of the tax administration, these necessary inherent expenses are fixed at a certain amount and this is the non-taxable minimum. It is valid for EVERYONE, regardless of whether they are very rich or poor. Its meaning is not social, but precisely in the fair and equal treatment of individuals and legal entities.
Since everyone is resisting the non-taxable minimum today, I see that Oresharski has given up on introducing it and is proposing “….A zero rate for income tax for workers on the minimum wage.” This is a radically different proposal and a typical social measure and distances our society from the market.
That is, pseudo-liberal talk and actions (the abolition of the tax-free minimum is exactly that) may lead not to improvements, but to moving away from the market and erasing already achieved results.
@Toto5
"No, my thesis is that the main and only purpose of eliminating the non-taxable minimum is to collect more taxes.
.... i.e. I claim that no one aims to simplify anything "
I don't know what else to tell you, except that if these are the real goals, then this sounds very bad. The question is, are these not just stated goals (for the audience)? I don't know.
"It's about justice, freedom and equal treatment"
I understand what your problem is. However, I don't understand some things, such as what these inherent costs of an individual are and where you will introduce them from. Consumers have no inherent costs, everything is consumption (and possibly saving and investment). In my opinion, you are trying to compare cars and pears. You can't, but you are trying.
I am against the 5% difference between a legal entity and a sole proprietorship. This is definitely not equal treatment. Large companies have an advantage over small ones. Then we complain that the large ones are getting bigger at the expense of the small ones!
I am generally against a profit tax. Companies' investments come as part of their profits. With this tax, we tax investments and directly reduce economic growth.
For individuals, when we impose a personal income tax, we tax savings, which, through investment in banks or securities, would still lead to greater growth.
Not to mention that in an inflationary economy, we also tax pseudo-profits with the profit tax. That is, a company makes 7% profit. However, 2% of it is an inflationary contribution. That is, it is due to inflation and it goes there again; you received more money because of the increase in the price of your production, but then you have to give more money to buy materials for the future. With the profit tax, this pseudo-profit is taxed as real (and it is not).
The only tax I would accept (again with displeasure and until I am shown the possibility of avoiding taxes altogether) is a tax on consumption. That is, only the sales of consumer goods should be taxed. VAT and excise duties are such taxes.
Indirect taxes do not reduce savings and investment, i.e. they do not hinder growth. They only change the type of production by shifting consumption from some people to others.
Here's how some people see the disadvantages of introducing a tax-free minimum:
1. The 10% rate is already the lowest in Europe.
2. The tax-free minimum will significantly reduce budget revenues, which will require limiting spending or raising other taxes.
3. Incentives for declaring low incomes in order to avoid any tax will increase.
4. The tax-free minimum applies to all taxpayers. It is much better to have a well-targeted social policy that will direct assistance to those most in need.
As I see it, some of the criticisms are no different from those of EE, but others are from a fundamentally different perspective. T.4 points out as a disadvantage that everyone will benefit from it. That is, "being equal before the law (even the tax law)" is a disadvantage.
Directly recommending "well-targeted social policy" - i.e. creating a "privileged class" - is a positive thing.
I also don't see what the non-taxable minimum has to do with point 1. Is the fact that the tax rate is low a disadvantage? Or is the low rate a boon - a gift from the government, which should make us accept an injustice.
@EE
"I understand what your problem is. However, I don't understand some things, such as what these inherent costs of an individual are and where you will introduce them from. Consumers have no inherent costs, everything is consumption (and possibly saving and investment). In my opinion, you are trying to compare cars and pears. You can't, but you are trying."
Income tax is a direct income tax. Another direct income tax is the so-called corporate tax.
The function of both taxes is the same - it taxes income. Companies have expenses in their operations and cannot generate income without incurring these expenses. Similarly, individuals incur certain expenses without which they will not be able to generate income.
Here is a quote describing the situation in the white world:
"Gross income represents the income earned from all sources. When the legally defined expenses for earning it are deducted from it, the net income is obtained. When tax benefits (provided for each family member), tax deductions (contributions to health and pension funds, local taxes, interest on housing loans, donations) are deducted from the net income, the taxable income is obtained."
See more about the two taxes here: http://www.bg-ikonomika.com/2010/03/2_9392.html
Consumers and consumption have nothing to do here. As consumers, we all pay VAT. That is, if individuals are ONLY considered consumers, there should be no VAT at all.
If there is one, since it will perform the same functions and be based on the same logic as the corporate tax, it is necessary to have a non-taxable minimum (legally determined expenses for earning it). I don't see anything complicated.
@Toto5
I continue to argue that the so-called inherent costs of individuals are a big fabrication that cannot be meaningfully defined. If it is introduced, it will be a completely arbitrary value determined by political + economic considerations ("we need to collect this much money in total, but people expect a discount of, say, 100 leva for inherent costs. OK, we will give it to them so that they feel happy that they have a discount. However, then the tax rate will be one percent higher to make up the difference").
I assume that transportation tickets to work will immediately be included in the "inherent costs" (to work I have to be at my workplace). However, to work I also have to be alive (if I'm dead, then there's no way 🙂 ); so the costs of food, water, heating, rent should also be included. If I don't rest once a year I can bring it to "burnout", i.e. I should include this in the inherent costs.
In short: another ridiculous, meaningless, and life-complicating economic variable.
"If there is one, since it will perform the same functions and be based on the same logic as the corporate tax, it is necessary to have a non-taxable minimum (legally determined expenses for earning it). I don't see anything complicated."
The function of taxes is to collect money for the state to perform the functions it has assigned itself. And it doesn't matter how they are collected, i.e. with which taxes. As long as the amount is enough, everything else is irrelevant. There would be no problem collecting them only from VAT, for example. Absolutely none. We make VAT 40%-50% and that's it. And the administration will be reduced many times over.
But no. There should be all kinds of taxes, even taxes on taxes (you pay personal income tax on your salary and then VAT and excise duties on the already taxed salary).
By creating different taxes and differentiating them by group, it becomes practically impossible to affect all groups equally. And problems of the type you are discussing will constantly arise, i.e. that the tax burden is not the same (according to some view). And we can even complicate the discussion by mentioning that companies need investments and for this the tax on profits should be lower than that of individuals or vice versa: we are a very poor country, people take little and that is why it is fair for people's taxes to be lower than those of companies. There will always be some point of view from which taxes are not fair. And the more complicated the system, the more complicated it becomes. And increasingly twisted explanations will be sought as to why, for example, VAT on books should be so much, and for milk - so much. And the end result is that taxes will be reduced for one group, but raised for another (the state needs a certain amount of money). The largest and/or most influential groups will naturally have an advantage and will push their interests forward (low taxes for them and high taxes for other groups).
In short: you are stuck in a question without a clear and correct answer. And a question that should have no reason to be asked at all (but with this tax system everyone asks it). If taxation is necessary, then it should be two pages long, the first being the title.
So, so, so many words from which it became clear that nothing remained of the principles of "justice, freedom and equal treatment". The naked truth shone:
"The function of taxes is to collect money for the state to perform the functions it has assigned to itself. And it doesn't matter how they are collected, i.e. with which taxes. As long as the amount is enough, everything else is irrelevant."
That's exactly what I've been saying from the very beginning. The idea is to fill the budget and nothing else. In short, all the smokescreen and babble about "great values" and how we hold on to some moral fabrications is nothing more than a cover-up of the real goal: "they collect money for the state ......... and it doesn't matter how it was collected."
"In short: you are stuck in a question without a clear and correct solution. And a question that should have no reason to be asked at all"
If I said that there is a clear-cut solution - no. I do not claim to know the whole truth or the "right path". However, it turns out that only if you declare yourself a "libertarian" do you have the right not only to ask questions, but also to impose them on others in the name of imaginary invented values, which drastically diverge from the results and effects of the imposed measures.
Let me repeat to you the real drawbacks of the idea of bringing back the non-taxable minimum:
1. The 10% rate is already the lowest in Europe.
2. The tax-free minimum will significantly reduce budget revenues, which will require limiting spending or raising other taxes.
3. Incentives for declaring low incomes in order to avoid any tax will increase.
4. The tax-free minimum applies to all taxpayers. It is much better to have a well-targeted social policy that will direct assistance to those most in need.
Only point 3 raises some concerns, but for a number of reasons I believe that the concerns are exaggerated. In any case, Oresharski's proposal for: "...Zero rate for income tax for workers in the MRZ", which will most likely be adopted, does not eliminate this danger at all.
In my opinion, these "minuses" are much less than the benefits that such a measure can have. The most significant of them is that about 1 billion will go directly to the domestic market, which is already suffering from anemia and will give it a breath of air. 70 - 80% of people who pay DOD spend their money in Bulgaria, for current consumption, and not abroad, for savings or investments. According to you, there may be no difference, but it is one thing when the money is seized from people directly, without reaching the market (DOD) and completely different if it has previously undergone market turnover (indirect taxes).
The introduction of the flat tax had one positive side - the single rate and one negative - the abolition of the non-taxable minimum. This was an experiment that no other EU country that introduced the so-called flat tax did. Everywhere they kept the non-taxable minimum, and in all of Europe only Georgia has a system similar to ours.
Under the old system, savings were hit with proportional rates and a tax-free minimum. A single rate was adopted, which had a positive effect on savings in banks, but the abolition of the tax-free minimum directly withdrew 1 billion from the market. When the flat tax was introduced, there was growth and this was not felt, but today this lack is felt noticeably. The result - a shrinking market and growth in deposits. To compensate for the shortcomings and make money return to the market, the rulers came up with another madness - to tax interest on deposits ..... and so on ad infinitum. Madness after madness thanks to one "wise" decision. In the name of the market, you are destroying the market itself. As the saying goes, "you will know them by their deeds"
@Toto5
"The naked truth has come to light.. "they collect money for the state ……… and it doesn't matter how it was collected""
I don't understand whether you are accusing me of something (e.g. inconsistency, illogicality, etc.) or other people (libertarians or not).
"1. The 10% rate is already the lowest in Europe."
I don't see what it has to do with anything and why it's being put forward as an argument at all.
"2. The non-taxable minimum will significantly reduce budget revenues, which will require limiting spending or raising other taxes."
Yes, unfortunately, that's exactly what will happen. The state needs X leva. And it will collect it. It will introduce a tax-free minimum and at its expense will raise other rates. The result is still bad, but now with a more complicated tax system. If the state were to reduce its expenses, I would be all for it, but unfortunately, that won't happen.
"3. Incentives for declaring low incomes in order to avoid any tax will increase."
It will be guaranteed.
"4. The tax-free minimum applies to all taxpayers. It is much better to have a well-targeted social policy that will direct aid to those most in need."
Now that I think about it, I can see some sense in the above. Taxes are taxes and they should not be used to make social policy. Whether and why to make social policy at all is another question. However, the people expect taxes to be used for social policy and accordingly they become so.
"Toto5"
"According to you, there may be no difference, but it's one thing when money is seized from people directly, without reaching the market (DOT) and quite another if it has previously undergone market circulation (indirect taxes)."
Now I see the above. You clearly imagine that the DOD sinks somewhere and does not appear on the market. On the contrary, the state redistributes this money (social benefits, salaries, pensions) and it is still taxed with VAT.
@EU
"I continue to argue that the so-called inherent costs of individuals are a big fabrication that cannot be meaningfully defined."
The economic sense is very simple.
1. You have a minimum, where all the money you earn goes to consumption and. you have no possibility of savings. You have no choice, whether you want it or not, everything goes to the market. That is, every leva you earn goes to the market and you pay indirect taxes for your entire income (through consumption). Imagine that bad times have come, everyone is on the brink and only earns enough money to exist. In this case, all of people's income goes to the market, and the state collects indirect taxes from them and not a single leva more.
That is, through the non-taxable minimum, the state tells you that if people are deprived, it will shrink (deprive) too.
2. In good times, when people earn more than the minimum, the individual has a choice. You can save/invest the difference or spend it on consumption. The state imposes another tax on this difference - DOD. Its meaning is that if you decide to save/invest, you will only be left with it. However, if you decide to spend the entire difference on consumption, you will also pay indirect taxes.
That is, in this way the state tells you that it prefers the additional income to be invested, and if you still decide to spend it, it will tax you twice (indirect taxes + personal income tax)
It is true that this non-taxable minimum is difficult to calculate, but each country has decided for itself what the threshold is below which it should not be touched. It is a protective mechanism, a certain threshold below which the market collapses and cannot exist.
In Bulgaria, it is believed that our economy is very weak and that savings/investments should be the priority. That is, the flat rate tells us exactly that. (commendable).
At the same time, however, there is no non-taxable minimum. That is, the state tells us that in a crisis it is not interested in the market, but only in its revenues. On the one hand, they encourage you to invest, and on the other hand, they tell you that they are not interested in the market - complete schizophrenia. Why and where will I invest if there is no market? That is why we are observing a growth in bank deposits and a shrinking market. As a friend of mine says: "A country in which the best investment is a bank deposit is about to close."
@Toto5
"That is, through the non-taxable minimum, the state tells you that if people are deprived, it will shrink (deprive) too."
The state has no intention of "depriving" itself of anything by cutting taxes and then reducing its spending. State spending is constantly rising. Deficits are normal these days, if you haven't noticed. And if the state wants to help, it should remove the personal income tax and corporate tax altogether, and not make exceptions to lie to people that something is being done for them (the latter is a winning strategy from a political point of view).
"That is, in this way the state tells you that it prefers the additional income to be invested, and if you still decide to spend it, it will tax you twice (indirect taxes + personal income tax)"
How do you know that? Has anyone stated it publicly? I'm curious.
My personal opinion is that the reason there is a VAT is that it has always been and is a convenient way to collect more money. VAT is a relatively new tax, it did not exist before. The above, in my opinion, is some attempt to give meaning (justification) to the current system. And the meaning there is, as I quoted another: to collect more money.
The above goal, i.e. to invest more, can be achieved somewhat more effectively by eliminating the corporate income tax and increasing the VAT.
"In Bulgaria, it is believed that our economy is very weak and that savings/investments should be the priority. That is, the flat rate tells us exactly that. (commendable)."
Let me ask again: If savings and investments are truly our priority, then why do we have personal income tax and corporate tax at all? And if they don't exist, will we even bother with tax-free minimums at all?
@EU
"The above, in my opinion, is some attempt to give meaning (justification) to the current system. And the meaning there is, as I quoted someone else: to raise more money."
Well, that's exactly what I'm saying.
The fact is that before the elimination of the non-taxable minimum, less money was collected from this tax.
"And if the state wants to help, it should remove the personal income tax and corporate tax altogether, and not make exceptions to lie to people that something is being done for them."
I don't know if you understand, but taxing all income without a tax-free minimum is exactly "exceptional" - in 99.9% of fiscal regimes around the world, such a miracle does not exist. In this case, those who lie that they are doing something are precisely the so-called libertarians.
You repeat several times that for you, indirect taxes are preferable to direct ones:
"The only tax I would accept (again with displeasure and until I am shown the possibility of avoiding taxes altogether) is a tax on consumption. That is, only the sales of consumer goods should be taxed. VAT and excise duties are such taxes."
I explained to you - the libertarian measures do exactly the opposite. The burden of indirect taxes is reduced and that of direct taxes is increased. That is, it turns out that the thesis is:
"We are against direct taxes, until we completely eliminate them we will increase their burden."
How is it that we both prefer indirect taxes and take measures in exactly the opposite direction?
Here are the numbers before the introduction of the flat tax and in 2012
In 2007, revenues from corporate income tax were 13% of tax revenues, and VAT 47.4%.
In 2012, revenues from corporate income tax were 14.9% of tax revenues, and VAT 46.8%.
These are the facts. Now try to sugarcoat them and explain to me that when the population hunches over direct taxes during a crisis, it's pro-market, liberal, and more-than-best.
@Toto5
Look, I'm going to ask you not to hold me responsible for supporting and explaining other people's opinions. They have their opinions, I have mine. I can only be responsible for my own opinions and possibly guess where other people's motivations came from in certain cases. Nothing more.
"Now try to powder them and explain to me that when the population hunches over direct taxes during a crisis, it's pro-market, liberal, and more-than-most."
I have no intention of glossing over or explaining the above facts, let alone taking responsibility for them. All I can say is that, like you, I don't like them, and that's because the DOD exists.
@EU
Sorry, EE, if my tone seemed a little harsh to you. I have nothing personal against you.
I am an ordinary entrepreneur (small) who is trying to do something, to abide by the laws and to stay afloat. My opinion, as well as the opinion of many of my colleagues, is that we need to be given a breath of air. I do not want help, but simply to be left to work. That is why I have told you several times that I am interested in what the situation is here and now, and not in the distant future. Your ideas may be good, but when some strange decisions are made in the name of these ideas, things go badly. I have told you my personal opinion - if there is anything worse than the state for me, it is the quasi-market ideas and decisions that destroy the market.
The non-taxable minimum is a protective mechanism that allows the tax burden of direct taxes to shrink during a crisis. When the flat tax was introduced, no one expected things to collapse for so long and it was normal not to pay attention to it. What happened, happened. I was hoping someone would understand that a mistake had been made and fix it. This mistake deprives our market of 1 billion leva. It is true that the state will redistribute this money and some of it will still come back, but most of it will go to another, closed market to which I do not have access. I do not know if you paid attention, but at the moment only companies that work with public procurement are doing well. The rest are floundering.
Personally, I had no idea what the flat tax proposal was about. Like you, I took the reasoning at face value. However, it turned out that making exceptions and introducing innovations without taking into account all side factors is not a good idea. I learned about the idea of the tax-free minimum as a protective mechanism later, because its lack is part of the problem. People built capitalism long before us, and in order to maintain it, there is a reason. The idea is simple - as incomes fall, the relative burden of the tax also falls. Theoretically, it could even become 0% (if everyone receives incomes equal to or less than the tax-free minimum). That is, if we had a similar protective mechanism, during these years of crisis after 2008, things would have been a little softer and more bearable. These are the direct consequences. However, the side effects are much worse. While we were shrinking, thanks to redistribution and a shoulder from the state, some companies gained exceptional competitive advantages. I am now looking at Oresharski's proposal. It will most likely pass, and with its "zero rate for workers on the MRZ", things will get even more distorted.
But it's not just the problem with the tax-free minimum. I dug a little and found another bunch of nonsense, proposed and introduced under the influence of libertarians. In 90% of cases, these innovations create a bunch of problems, many of which cannot be solved or fixed at all. I don't know if it's due to ignorance or on purpose, but the exact opposite happens. Where they intervene, the market collapses and the life of medium and small entrepreneurs becomes more difficult.
The most irritating thing about the whole thing is that the issues are considered only from the perspective of the social side and the budget. No one asks business. If they ask, the opinion of big business is taken into account. Yes, but in Bulgaria big business is "attached" to the state and in many cases my interests coincide, and any coincidence of the interests of these two parties turns out to be to the detriment of small and medium-sized businesses.
@Toto5
"I don't want help, I just want them to let us work."
From a very similar expression comes the term: laissez-faire 🙂
"The most irritating thing about the whole thing is that the issues are considered only from the perspective of the social side and the budget. No one asks business. If they do, the opinion of big business is taken into account."
I'm trying to explain this here and on G. Angelov's blog. Medium and small businesses are screwed because they don't have access to power. And then people complain about how you see the big ones getting bigger and monopolies are heading towards. And he said "capitalism" was to blame. And not that the state is interfering where it doesn't belong and trying to play the central controller.
I don't feel like arguing about this non-taxable minimum under the DOD anymore.
This discussion has become quite long, so I suggest we continue it another time. 🙂
@EU
"I don't feel like arguing about this non-taxable minimum under the DOD anymore."
To be honest, I'm already tired. I tried to do something (according to my capabilities) to change things - it's clearly not going to happen. I don't mean our conversation here, but the actions we took together with colleagues to educate politicians, etc. economists, on whom the solution to the problem depends.
What I learned is that you don't argue with believers. Motives and arguments don't matter. The other thing I learned is that ideas are given, and decisions are made by people who have no idea about the consequences of what they do/propose.
You cannot claim that it is better for indirect taxes to have a greater burden than direct taxes, and at the same time, thanks to you and your proposal, the exact opposite is happening. (I am referring to G. Angelov and the other so-called libertarians).
Here are two quotes from his blog:
1. The impact of budget revenues on the economy should not be overlooked
Their size negatively affects the economy, but the structure of revenues is also important, as is the efficiency of the revenue system. According to a study by the European Commission, it is better to fill the budget with indirect rather than direct taxes.
2. The tax wedge (the difference between the employer's labor costs and the employee's net salary) has a negative impact on the economy.
In practice, with the abolition of the non-taxable minimum, the effects are exactly the opposite of the above findings. At a macro level, this is clearly visible in the numbers. Both indicators for the period 2008 - 2012 are unfavorable. For this period, a simultaneous reduction in the burden of indirect taxes and a widening of the tax wedge are observed.
This is confirmed by Angelov himself:
1. ...This is the ideal tax from the perspective of both the budget and the citizens. (obviously at the expense of business - there is no other in the equation)
2. The facts prove it: the flat tax is the only tax that has INCREASED revenue during the crisis years (all others have decreased)
The move to abolish the tax-free minimum is unique and will one day enter textbooks as an example of HOW NOT TO DO IT, especially during a crisis. I don't know who came up with it, but I don't see any connection with the ideas of "justice, freedom, and the free market." If the goal is to conduct experiments (I'm not a fan of experimentation for its own sake), it would have been better if they had stopped at Milton Friedman's proposal - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_income_tax
I'll stop arguing too.
May we be alive and well, and we will cope as best we can.